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Post by peggy and frank on Jan 5, 2016 17:06:29 GMT -8
you now I was just thinking the same thing series or parrell? ill have a beer on that thought. ohh my god someone who lives off grid. and that is how it is setup - to buss +to buss with a thermally regulated fan set up. I have 20+ connectors on the - side and it never set off the fan set up. the fan is set to go off at 90 degrees. the fan set up does work I put a torch on it.
you might want to up your amps? will try to geyt more info. generater is running and we are at 12.8 we got heat for toni8ght. and actually I screwed up on the tilt you made me think about it. I am actuall at 57 degrees from zero. huh? 33 degree tilt from 90 not 0.
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jerry
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Post by jerry on Jan 5, 2016 20:18:50 GMT -8
Yeah, I'm off grid. But MOBILE. a trailer, I hookup and move every two weeks. 2 panels on the roof, 1 panel on the ground. Bat(s) connect to the trailer and any busses, distribution panel was set up by the manufacturer of the trailer. See my 1st post above.... I hate to say... criticize. ... but can you please be a bit more specific at times? Eg. You asked "you might want to up your amps?" Up what amps?, for what? Have you checked out the links I've provided? Good info already typed in. And again, you have 3 AC devices, plugged into inverter I can only assume. What are they and how long and often are they on? Busy day tomorrow, be back in a day or two. J
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Post by peggy and frank on Jan 7, 2016 7:04:11 GMT -8
we run laptop broadband and tv they equal 3.9 amps dc. the furnace is 3.2 amps dc. the furnace at 0 degrees outside runs between 7 and 8 minutes. every 30 minutes. the 2 main led lights are we'll call it .6 amps they are ran for 2 hours a day yeah your right a little explaning so here we go. there is only 1 thing plugged into the inverter which is located inside for convenience. that 10 gauge wire is then ran into a flippable selectable multi input fuse box. when you want invert power or generator power you flip it into the correct position. so where I got my reading for amp draw for ac power was from the inverters + dc input. that also includes the inverters self consumption of .8 ish(it fluctuates)
explanation on how ive got my 12 volt wired. what ever we run for 12 volt is hooked up with 8 gauge wire. this dos not include battery invert cc etc. that 8 gauge wire runs to a mini breaker that I got out of a converter fuse block(like the one you might have). then that fuse block runs to a set of glass fusses that are specifically fussed according to the actual amperage use. this is the reason there is 20 or more - hook ups and only 10 or so + hook ups. all dc- wires run right back to buss bar.that is also the reason for my own buss bar no one makes them this big you can buy a 6 wire hook up but not a 20+ and they are $30 bucks each times say 4 that's $120 dollars. example overhead 12 volt fan is glass fused at point of use that + wire runs to a 10 amp mini breaker. - runs right to buss bar. that mini braker is also feeding 1 led 1 other fan and 2 1141 bulbs. because of all this wiring youll lose something in amperage. by doing it this way I can pull that 8 gauge + wire off the buss bar and get a very specific reading, rather than getting a reading from point of use. by explain this to you that should eliminate your next question. where did you get your reading? confused? I think it was spider bob that said it first and hes right. "when you stare at spec sheets long enough they start to stare back". and then you throw a beer or two into it. oops I misread the spec sheet for amps on your batteries.
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jerry
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Post by jerry on Jan 8, 2016 12:11:19 GMT -8
OK Peggy, you are brand new to solar and painfully learning what solar and batteries will/will not do. You came to this forum looking for knowledge. I have pointed out some links to good info. Look them up, read, sleep on it, read again. My pea-brain can be slow at digesting that stuff. So,…..
I will get a bit long here. Not going to repeat anymore than necessary. Start thinking amps and amp hours.
Your furnace amps and time sounds pretty right on. In one hour it has ran 15 minutes, ¼ hour or in 24 hours, it has ran 6 hours. 3.2amps times 6 = 19.2 amp hours (Ahrs) per day. Your inverter, under load .8 amp sounds reasonable. Mine, no load is <0.3 per manual. So, under load 24 hrs a day .8 X 24 = 19.2 Ahrs. That is what the inverter is consuming just to provide some device AC power. Hypothetically, let’s say that device is on 24 hrs a day and requires 2 amps, so, 2 X 24 = 48 Ahrs. So, your battery load/usage is
19.2 + 19.2 + 48 = 86.4 Ahrs per day. Got the drift? This is why you really need to know your real factual LOAD.
Why? Batteries are rated at an Ahrs load, if you can get it…. My 6V bats, takes two to make a 12V battery, are rated at 232 Ahrs at 20 hours. Which basically means at some “load”, they will provide 232 amps in 20 hrs AND THEN BE DEAD! Down to 10.5V. So, using the numbers I gave in prior post,
54.5 X 5 = 272.5 Ahrs. 14 X 15 = 210 Ahrs. AND THEN THEY ARE DEAD!
Now, there is thing called depth of discharge (DoD). The above numbers means 100 percent discharged. Do that over and over, and you will be going to the battery store for new ones every week. I will take mine to 50%, roughly 12.1V. They are 4 years old and going strong, and those 6Vs are made for a lot of discharge/charge cycles. That’s why many RVers use the 6V batteries and there are different kinds of “true deep cycle” batteries and manufactures. That FAQ link on bats in this forum does an excellent job explaining all this and more.
Now, how many Ahrs do you really get going to 50% discharge, DoD? Obviously your bats and rate of amount of amps factor in. My 6Vs run the inverter to power the TV and satellite receiver, those two pull 4-ish amps, add inverter, so say 5 amps. In six hours, my fully charged 6Vs are down to 12.3 12.2V. I’m getting this voltage reading from my PV cc. Stay up another hour and the cc starts waffling between 12.2 and 12.1 volts, so I’m at 12.15V and time to go to bed or start the generator. So, 6 or 7 hours, at 5 amps, I have in reality 30, 35 Amp hours of usable battery.
And, oh yeah. Where did I get my amps numbers. I put a multimeter on, turned everything off, then one by one, turned on various devices to what amps they pulled. TV - 2.5, Sat receiver 1.5. My frig, .85 if propane burner was on, .7 amp when burner was off. And so on…. And, since my cc will display the amps it is, or should be, sending out….. when bats are at 14.8, the cc has been cutting back amps to hold that voltage, I turn off the TV and cc drops approximately 2.5 amps. Drops that 2.5 since the TV ain’t sucking it out.
Now you know why you GOT to know your load and what your bats are going to provide, so you can size your battery bank for your needs. Now, you know what your battery requirements are. But you got to replace those amps and that is where you got to understand what solar, wind, hydro, generator powered charger options, sizing, will be required to put those amps back. Tomorrow. …..
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Post by peggy and frank on Jan 8, 2016 13:50:02 GMT -8
time to digest all the info.
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jerry
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Post by jerry on Jan 9, 2016 12:50:44 GMT -8
Cold this morning, 36. Reminded me to point out that cold is a battery’s enemy. You mentioned your electrical hut was warm and maybe shouldn’t have insulated it. No, that’s a good thing. Don’t want your bats in a hot box, but keeping them warmer than your fridge outdoor temp is good. Now, you know how and why you need figure your day to day amp usage. Better understanding what batteries will do so you can size your bat bank. Ya might wanna check out that FAQ thing and the interstate battery comparison chart to learn about various battery types, sizes to help figure out for the $$$ what kind, size will best fit your needs. Now we got to re-charge the bats. Solar, I have no clue about the voodoo that goes on in a panel. Given 100 percent sunlight, they produce a rated power output, Watts. Looking at our renogy 100W specs. At optimum operating numbers : 18.9V X 5.29A = 99.981W. Voodoo. …. Bottom line, we poor in the dark users only care about the Amps. To get that optimum number, tilt and east/west angle is dead on to get that 100 percent sunlight, we will never see it. Commercial solar farms 99.99 with their computer controlled system can be making minute by minute adjustments all day long. Now, our PV charge controller, cc, takes that panel power, Watts, does voodoo and puts out Amps to charge our batteries. The cc is rated pretty much based on how beefy the thing made. Yours, 400W at 12V. Voodoo. You can hook up 4 100W panels, 2 200W, 2 100W and 1 200W, etc, go over that 400 and you melt the cc. That’s why do care about the panel Watt rating….. You can hook up panels in series or parallel, just as long as you don’t exceed the operating Watt and Voltage rating of your cc. I think I understand parallel, doing series apparently has some merit for some reason, but I have NOT been able to wrap my pea-brain around it……. Duh! So, let’s say you take out 75 Ahrs from the bat bank. The 300W of panels and cc combo can deliver topped out, 15 amps. 75 / 15 = 5 hrs opleasef needed charging time. Using your 2 10A, AC battery chargers, 75 / 20 = 3.75 hrs. Back to solar, sun comes up and panels start at 1 amp, the amps output grows over time with rising sun. Let’s say, during that time 15 Amp hrs have been delivered, now you only need the 15A for 4 hours. In real life, we don’t get that 15 for 5 hours. Clouds, shade, dust build up that has not been washed off, etc, takes us down to, say, 7.5 amps and thus need 10 hours of charge time. We can do that in the summer, maybe, not in the winter….. so to account for the bad times we have to go to 600 Watts of solar panel and beefier cc. Or back it up with alternate source, wind, generator, etc. Just a sad fact, that’s how the universe works. OK, the above is the theoretical concept. Our cc, charge controllers , control the real life charging process. Your cc manual does an excellent job of explaining the 4 charging stages, bulk, boost, float and equalize. I will add a bit to try and explain the why. Say you start charging a bat reading 12.0V. It gets to 12.8, it is not charged, but charg-ING. Pull the charger off, in a few minutes it will drop to say, 12.4V, incomplete charging. It takes that extra voltage/time combination to be able to stay at the charged value of 12.7 when charging does stop. Incomplete charging, I’ve been told, repeatedly over time can lead to a much shorter battery life span. One more tid bit. All batteries are not all the same. Depending on ?, some need less/more voltage and time. Bat, cc, blah blah manufacturers, if they say anything, are basically giving industry accepted standards, to protect themselves. User beware. …… I WAS just accepting that standard. Ran in to guy, now a good friend, that took exception, and when I finally said my old controller wasn’t cutting it, bought the one I have and now can now take my 6V to 14.8 for 5 hours, float at 13.8. Some people may raise their eyebrows, but my 6s do perform better. Why, don’t know nor care…… my friend has L-16 bats. Huge!!! Same footprint as my 6, but instead of 10 inches tall, the L-16 is 2 foot tall. He was going to 15.2 all day if he could get it. One day he was ecstatic to find someone had done research and concluded 15.8 was more ideal for those bats and usage. He started doing that, and got happier. Peggy, hope my blabbering has helped. I sort of took the KISS philosophy in my explanations, my pea-brain needs that at times, so hope you were not offended like I was talking to a 10 year old. You got a good start, very resourceful building the infrastructure. Tomorrow will add some observations I’ve made the past few days, stuff I normally ignore. Maybe that will help in your expectations of solar. Then, can’t come up with anything else. ….. Good luck
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Post by peggy and frank on Jan 9, 2016 16:34:21 GMT -8
wook up 11.4? what the. oh remember to flip from 2 to 10 amp on battery charger.the night before while running gen. I must have hit 2 amp not 10 amp. when I shut door. got up at 4:00 am and no @#$%@# heat 46 degrees in the house. furnace wont run under 11.4 accuretly. herers the senerio. at 4:00 am we are at 11.4, we had 2 inches of snow today. absolutely no sun. at noon, 11.8. renogy you rock. I got charging of batts in the middle of 0 degree 2 inch snow. im out there cleaning them off and watching the amps go up as im cleaning all day long. knowing that I think that is one down fall, not a full charge everyday. which never allows the cc to accurately charge the batts correctly. so why not hook up another battery charger. checked power level. before generator recharge. renogys panels through out the snowstorm charged it from 11.4 to 12. after 30 mintues 12.7 after one hour 12.3? now remember the furnace is the only thing on I was outside in the snowstorm doing chores. it is 5 below zero no gloves on and im trying to take accurate amp readings. I have 3 battery chARGERs hooked up 6.5 6.8 and a 2.5. why does battery volt drop then go back up? after 90 mintues we are at 12.7 what the and why the? I just don't understand ! renogy jerry! and it has been doing this since gen. recharge. those batteries your friend has I want a couple. after talking to you im starting to think my batteries even brand new are not up to the task. I just keep thinking summer is only 4 months away. umm time to chew on those thoughts.
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jerry
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Post by jerry on Jan 10, 2016 13:38:43 GMT -8
Peggy, first I don’t work for renogy. I’m a nut who, by desire to do so, lives in a 28 foot 5th wheel trailer. Currently rotting in SW Arizona, ticked if temp falls below 45. Waiting to be able to return to my beloved Colorado and go back to fly fishing, grouse hunting and enjoy life in the mountains. And dread the next winter cause I will be back in this xxx desert. I’m so far off grid my water supply is the 60 gal the trailer holds and 20 more in containers. I conserve water more than electricity!
Peggy, you do not live in a solar friendly state, at least in the winter. Looked at nat weather service for wausau, past 3 days overcast, snowy, fog mist. No sun, no solar, what little you did get, just a drop in the bucket. The cold…… HARD on your bats!!! For the next 3 months or so, your friend is the generator. Budget the gas $$ to run it. Solar at times will lend a helping hand. You living fixed off grid should look into a wind generator to augment solar. You have had wind the past few days, 24 hrs of power. Expensive yes, and like solar, no wind no wind power. Me being “mobile” off grid, wind ain’t worth the hassle.
I believe I have posted some good info solar newbies need to understand, pointed to some links with info I have been basically repeating. Waste of my time I you don’t GO to those links and read …..
You woke up and bats at 11.4V(olts). Say it one more time, at all costs, do NOT let the bats go below 12.1V. Period, end of discussion. You fired up the generator and as you were cleaning, the amps went up, bull. The Voltage did, the Amps, if the batteries were properly getting charged would have been dropping. Another thing, you said you were out with 2 inches of snow, cleaning the batteries off???. The bats are OUT outside??
Get them covered, out of the elements. Snow is water, water conducts electricity, like a light bulb. So, your bats are discharging into the snow. Your loss, power and battery life span.
I explained the charging process in last post, not going to repeat. You said 3 chargers hooked up, 6.5 6.8 and 2.5 WHAT, I’m assuming AMPS. Any good charger, in my opinion, will display battery voltage and the amps the charger is reading/putting out. My solar cc does, my AC charger does not, but after xx time says the bat is charged, turns on green light to indicate bat is charged and drops amp to “maintain” charge. My cc does that, boost stage… bat charged, down to float to “maintain”. Nuff said.
You ask why voltage goes up down. Not sure the confusion prompting that question, but like I pointed out in prior post, turn TV off amps go down. Likewise, at night, no charging power going on. Bat reading, say 12.4V. Turn off TV and voltage goes up to 12.5V, wait couple of minutes and it can/does go to 12.6V. Turn TV back on and right back down to 12.4V. Why?, that’s how the beasts work.
Your bats at 11.4V are hurting, like in giving birth/labor hurting. And, are hooked in parallel via buss. You got 2 new ones, one older??? 3 chargers, 1 to 1 bat, next to number 2 bat, etc. Might as well hook chargers to buss, but DON’T do that. Suggestion, disconnect 1 bat, pull off the negative lead, so it is just sitting there. Put your best charger on it, and after a lot of time, 8 10 12 hours, it can get thru the “charging process” and now healthy, for awhile….. If your charger is old fashion, just puts out amps forever, it overcharges and the bat blows. So you may need a multimeter and/or hydrometer to check charge state, and time to judge the charging process.
You bats not up to the task?? Got to believe they are not. My 12V, came with this new trailer I’m now in, I know ain’t worth squat. But I got it so use it. It is the most p…. poor marine/deep cycle bat Interstate makes, They make better, for more $$. That 12V, in real life, in my opinion / observation will give me 4 hrs max to deliver the 5amps to run my TV. You want those L-16s? Saw them in a “sells solar stuff” store just the other day. My 6V, $118 a piece. That’s $236 to make a 12V bat. The L-16, $350 or $700 to make one 12V bat. And they still got to be recharged? My 6V, rated at 232Ahr, L-16 is I vaguely recall, 385Ahr. Pay for what you get, abuse it, and go back sooner than you want to replace it.
Peggy, years ago, when I was getting my masters in computer science, I was tasked with the responsibility to teach a FORTRAN programming class. Students had book and references to read and study. I was just there to help them understand. I enjoy teaching/helping those who want learn. I’ve given links to the “books”, tried to help explain the contents. Up to you to go read them. If I have come across as flaming/lecturing, I apologize to the readers of this forum and renogy, just want to help.
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Post by peggy and frank on Jan 14, 2016 16:08:26 GMT -8
you are not gonna believe this. so here we go. checked generator output voltage. old generator 99 volts ac. borrowed generator 125 volts ac? I checked old generator output voltage, it was 99 volts what? that would explain why battery chargers dididnt want to charge batteries fully. aS FAR as I know if the ac input isn't high enough the item you are trying to use wont work correctly at a lower ac voltage. after all the spec sheets that have been staring back at me! so yeah I now have 14 volts dc and then some. that would also explain the indifference in different dc voltage input, the generator surging. so back to the drawing board for how long to recharge on generator power. thanks jerry for making me think twice. p.s. this is the third generator this last year.
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jerry
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Post by jerry on Jan 17, 2016 7:58:30 GMT -8
Generators are rated by the amount of watts they can produce and do it at the typical household 120V. There are higher voltage generators for whatever… link below might help you out with the AC world. www.buildmyowncabin.com/electrical/electrical-faq/difference-voltages-110-220.htmlHere some stuff I have observed last few weeks. 270 watts of panels, tilted for my latitude, facing pretty much due south. Capable of providing 15 amps. The TV and satellite receiver are almost always on and pulling approximately 4.5A Sunrise at 7:40, at 7:45 enough indirect light to wake up the cc, displays 0.0 amps, the pair of 6V golf cart batteries to be charged have been at 12.2V. 5 minutes later the cc is up to 0.1A. At 8:00, sun starts to top over the hill, cc pops to 1.0A. Couple of minutes, sun completely above horizon and cc at 3.0A and climbing as the sun climbs. So does battery voltage, at 8:30 they up to 12.6V, at 9 up to 13.4V. About 10:00, bat voltage hits the 14.8V threshold and cc goes into boost stage, cc showing 10A, and of course as the bats get “healthier “, more time at 14.8V, the cc amps begin to fall to maintain the 14.8V boost voltage level. Day after day, same thing. Then, it was 10:30 10:45, before bats reached 14.8V. Why longer? Finally hit me at least it is my conclusion. Hit 14.8V at 10:00, the AM low temperature was 45 degrees. When it took to/past 10:30, low temperature was 36. To me, that is just an example of how the cold can affect batteries – performance and recharging. All this observed on cloudless days. I have had some partly cloudy days. Depending. ……. It takes to noon, maybe after or before then, for the bats to reach 14.8V. Expected. Did observe, my cc is MPPT, the sun got higher a better angle to the panels, the 15A the panels can produced, the cc upped to 16.0A+/-. I had 2 days back to back of DARK clouds. Generator/charger time. Charger is 10A. I learned long ago, if the TV is being powered by the inverter , the charger gets the bats to 12.6V and has a hard time to get to higher voltage 13.? and up. So I switch the TV to AC, the 3 amps are now going into the bats to charge, not right back out to power TV. Charger manual says squat on what, how why it does what it does….. sometimes gets to and holds bats at 13.8V, then goes to 14.8V plus. Next time climbs right up 14.8. Duh….. starting battery voltage and temperature? . Anyway, it can take 3 4 even 5 hours to get to 14.8V. So on those dark days it was around 1:30, 4.5hrs of generator, I would turn off generator, run off batteries. 5:30ish back to generator til close to bedtime. By the way, saw the cc able to put out 2 amps briefly a few times, but usually 1.0A plus/minus, mostly minus. Peggy, hopes this helps gets your expectations cleared up. We’re are real close to having same solar power ability.
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